rosefox: Green books on library shelves. (Default)
Rose Fox ([personal profile] rosefox) wrote2009-08-05 02:47 pm

"The best part of beating your head against a wall is how good it feels when you stop."

(all text quoted with permission)

In response to my letter, Paul di Filippo writes back:

Dear Rose--

I am of course incredibly saddened that my remarks have caused this breach between us. Allow me to begin some kind of discourse by pasting in something I just wrote to another concerned respondent:


Let me try to explain what I was doing with those metaphors. Obviously, I did not handle them with sufficient expertise for the point to come across.

1) First off, I deliberately sought for non-human, outre objective correlatives (excluding the two bands mentioned). I did not want to use stale examples that referenced human personalities, cliques, movements, etc. So I came up with potatoes, corn, paper, lettuce.

2) The terms of comparison were chosen to be deliberately multivalent. Are potatoes "better" than "corn"? Is paper "better" than lettuce? Which term relates to women/POCs, which to men/WASP? Did I ever say?

3) These metaphors were OBSERVATIONAL, not PROSCRIPTIVE. They affirmed that such homogenous groupings are often seen in nature, oftentimes with innocent explanations. Nowhere do I say that such groupings SHOULD ALWAYS BE THE RULE.

A field consisting of 100% potatoes might represent predatory, earth-destroying agribusiness. Or it could be the result of a struggling family farmer trying to make the best use of his land to meet the marketplace demands.

I think you can guess which instance I feel applies to the Ashley anthology.

4) I have nothing but respect, admiration and feelings of camaraderie for any writer of fantastika of any gender/ethnicity/race/species who produces wonderful imaginative work and gets through the gauntlet to publication, in any venue whatsoever.

Isn't it too bad not everyone feels that way?

With all best wishes for all your own creative efforts, and the good of the community!

Paul Di Filippo


You label what was going on at SF SIGNAL as a "conversation" before I arrived. Please take another look at those posts prior to my appearance. They constituted a demagogue's bonfire.

And how do you think SF SIGNAL liked having their simple journalistic post shanghaied for tendentious diatribes? Was that a proper use of their site? or was it egotistical agenda-mongering?

As for self-serving: I thought that my personal stake in this was so massive and obvious, that it did not need mentioning! Of course I was a defender of a project I was involved in and thought worthy. I wish I had prefaced my remarks with such an obvious statement. I wish others had done so about theirs.

There is nothing but "self-serving" instincts at the basis of all these actions.

But "self-serving" is not always bad! Altruism arises out of self-serving behavior.

Take the hypothetical case of Charles Stross, already cited as a disinterested party. Why would he possibly act as he does, given he has no dog in the fight?

1) He wishes to improve his mind, and hence his art, by raising his own consciousness. SELF-SERVING.

2) He wishes to improve the genre. SELF-SERVING. (That's where he makes his living and has his passions.)

3) He wishes to lessen the pain he feels upon seeing injustice that is done to people he knows personally, or only by reputation. SELF-SERVING. (They feel better, so he feels less pain.)

4) He wishes to get on the good side of people whose friendship and support he would like to accrue, and to acquire social approbation. SELF-SERVING.

Self-serving behavior is the only motivator.

Every single accusatory poster, I am convinced, including yourself, are operating on some mix of the above self-serving behavior. But no one admits it, even to themselves. That's great! We're all human. But just don't go around pretending to be Mother Theresa or Thich Nhat Hanh. (Both quite self-serving, by the way.) That's just hypocritical and sickening and laughable.

On the other hand, what are some of the hidden agendas of the "pure idealist?" (And haven't we learned by now that "pure Idealism" usually equates with fanaticism, blindness, lack of sympathy, and thuggery?)

1) To stir up a ruckus to make oneself feel bigger and more important.

2) To acquire power, money, status.

3) To forcibly convert heathens.

4) To get revenge.

Note that I do not impute these ignoble motives to any specific participant in this latest fiasco. I'm only saying that they are immutable timeless behaviors among fallible humans.

How I wish that others would cease from assigning their own scripts to people they know nothing about.

Please feel free to quote this email verbatim should the occasion ever arise.

Yours in conversation,


I respond:

Hi Paul,

I appreciate you writing back, but I feel like you're not responding to my letter directly; instead, you seem to still be up on your soapbox, even copy-pasting an email to someone else as though we were interchangeable, and defending your choices rather than accepting that it was not just your "handling" of those metaphors but the use of them in any way at all that was offensive and problematic. (I note that you don't even mention the Whitman reference.) If you wanted to begin some kind of discourse, you could have started with the end of my letter, which pretty clearly lays out the things I was hoping to hear from you. Unsurprisingly, "I definitely meant to say this offensive thing but could have said it more clearly" was not on that list.

It doesn't matter whether the field of 100% potatoes and 0% corn comes about through aggressive weeding of the corn or the use of tough genetically engineered potatoes that withstand toxic pesticides while the weaker corn shrivels away. What matters is that people, human beings, are the ones being weeded out, the ones being sprayed with toxins--toxins such as your use of these very toxic metaphors, to bring it full circle--and the only shock to anyone on Ashley's side of the debate is that they persist in growing where they're told they ought to lay down and die. Straight white men are not inherently tougher or stronger than women or people of color or queers, and if Ashley puts in so much effort to weed out stories by people who aren't straight white men, I think everyone is absolutely right to question his motives in addition to placing this anthology in the larger context of a genre in which minorities and women get the shaft over and over and over again. Defending the monoculture of Ashley's anthology is horrifying when so much of the field really is equivalent to "a predatory, earth-destroying agribusiness", except it's not the earth that's being ravaged, it's the careers of women and minorities, and the interests of readers who want more variety in authorial perspectives. (The suggestion that Ashley felt he needed to create an all-male TOC to satisfy market pressures is so absurd I can't even believe you made it.)

That metaphor is absolutely offensive no matter which way you "handle" it. So as long as you persist in trying to defend it, I don't think we can even begin to have a conversation, because I will still be aware that I am talking to someone who thinks a certain class of writers--which happens to include people like me, but this would be offensive even if it didn't--are either inherently weak and inferior or a nuisance, and I have no expectation of ever being taken seriously by someone who would take such a position. You're very right that self-interest comes into play here; self-interest is why I wrote to you, because I would selfishly like to see you figure this stuff out and redeem yourself into someone who I want to hang out with, but self-interest is also going to compel me to stay away from you if you continue to stand by your earlier words, because I really can't tolerate the distress of hanging out with someone who thinks that way and watching him be so dismissive of a good swath of our friends and colleagues.

I'm not going to address the rest of your letter, because this is a stopping point for me. Either you acknowledge that comparing a group of people to weeds was wrong and offensive no matter how you did it, or we really don't have anything much to talk about.


And he responds:

Dear Rose--

1) Where are the weeds in my metaphors? The weeds are only in your mind and interpretation. I never used the word or the implication once. Corn and potatoes are two equally valuable crops, even perhaps symbiotic. They represent choices made among two equals. The monoculture choice is arguably stupid and unproductive, but weeds never figure into the metaphor at all--except in your recasting of it. Toxins? WTF? You look eagerly for genocidal implications when there are none.

2) I could have cut and pasted that passage without telling you, and you never would have known. I told you as a sign of honesty and respect. I did it simply because I thought it was a good passage and did not feel like wasting time restating it.

3) You will never get any private or public repentance from me. At least not until someone on the "other side" offers the same, and does it first, considering that their moronic arguments preceded my moronic arguments.

4) You have always struck me and continue to strike me as a sincere wisher-of-goodness for the field. Others in "your camp" appear to me to be repugnant and dangerous combinations of Jerry Falwell, Savonarola, Osama bin Laden, Bill O'Reilly and Aimee Semple McPherson. To such, I will never bow my head.

Ciao for now!
dhobikikutti: earthen diya (Default)

[personal profile] dhobikikutti 2009-08-06 12:31 am (UTC)(link)
Hm. Well. Good to know where he stands, eh? ::shrugs::
ironed_orchid: pin up girl reading kant (Default)

[personal profile] ironed_orchid 2009-08-06 12:36 am (UTC)(link)
You are eloquent and reasonable.

He is, as you say, still on a soapbox.

Also, it doesn't seem to occur to him that the other people who were commenting might not only be authors who share your political views, but close friends of yours, and that by insulting them, he is suggesting you choose to surround yourself with "repugnant and dangerous" people.
starlady: (dodge this)

[personal profile] starlady 2009-08-06 01:10 am (UTC)(link)
Where are the weeds in my metaphors? The weeds are only in your mind and interpretation.

John C. Wright recently said something eerily similar to me: "it's not me, it's you!" Which may work when one is trying to dump one's significant other gently, but is not actually a valid response to someone's substantive criticism of one's argument.

Well, I commend you for having the patience for giving him the time of day, let alone a fair hearing.

[identity profile] 2009-08-05 06:54 pm (UTC)(link)
The clue, it is not gotten. I'm very sorry.

[identity profile] 2009-08-05 07:07 pm (UTC)(link)
Wow. I-- Wait, did he-- Osama bin Laden? Really? Just ... wow.

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sylvanfae: (Ponderance)

[personal profile] sylvanfae 2009-08-05 07:14 pm (UTC)(link)
We have Falwells, O'Reillys, and bin Ladens? Where? Trying to be included equals exclusion and wishing for annhiliation, whut?
sev: (Default)

[personal profile] sev 2009-08-05 07:55 pm (UTC)(link)
because in his zero-sum world including deserving PoC and women means excluding the undeserving white men. Won't someone think about the untalented white menz?
cyprinella: Octopus hiding under a box (box octopus)

[personal profile] cyprinella 2009-08-05 07:17 pm (UTC)(link)
Well. Um, okay then. I hope he enjoys his trip on the epic failboat? IDEK.

[identity profile] 2009-08-05 07:18 pm (UTC)(link)
How very sad.

How I wish that others would cease from assigning their own scripts to people they know nothing about.

Pot. Kettle. Black. Sheesh.

And he *really* does not get the implications of his monoculture metaphor. Or chooses not to.

I do not think I could have had this exchange and handled myself with the level of civility you have demonstrated.
yendi: (Default)

[personal profile] yendi 2009-08-05 07:19 pm (UTC)(link)

If I'd seen the line "How I wish that others would cease from assigning their own scripts to people they know nothing about," out of context, I'd never have expected Paul to be the one saying it. The irony there is painful.

I can't, for the life of me, imagine that the folks at SFSignal has the slightest problem with getting traffic driven its way, since that can only bump up their advertising hits (and increase awareness of the site).

As for the idea that those of us who wish to make the genre better (which is the "accusation" against Stross that carries the most weight) are self-serving because we're associated with the genre, well, sure. So is trying to make the planet a better place. It's not quite as dumb an analogy as the potato/copy paper/lettuce one, but it's still pretty bad.

And on hitting refresh, um, Bin Laden, O'Reilly, and Falwell? I didn't even know any of them read science fiction.
Edited 2009-08-05 19:19 (UTC)

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[identity profile] 2009-08-05 07:19 pm (UTC)(link)
holy mother of what the fuck. if that is not the failiest thing in this week's delightful triple decker sundae of fail.

I was just about to make another post on all this crap, but now I think I need to process the heap o'fuckup.

[identity profile] 2009-08-05 07:24 pm (UTC)(link)
sorry about swearing my face off in your space, btw. at this rate my next journal entry on this will be three paragraphs of cussing.

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[identity profile] 2009-08-05 07:22 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh god, this whole thing is triggering my embarrassment squick something fierce. Does he not realize he's out in public with no pants on?
seawasp: (Default)

[personal profile] seawasp 2009-08-05 07:28 pm (UTC)(link)
Are you saying something against nudists?

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[identity profile] 2009-08-05 07:33 pm (UTC)(link)
Wow. For a professional writer, the guy really does come off like an Internet kook.
seawasp: (Default)

[personal profile] seawasp 2009-08-05 07:37 pm (UTC)(link)
These are not disjoint sets.

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[identity profile] 2009-08-05 07:47 pm (UTC)(link)
Holy shit. I...I just don't even know what to say to that. It's so incredibly worse than what he said online.

Though I think SF Signal probably appreciated the extra traffic, really.

[identity profile] 2009-08-05 07:50 pm (UTC)(link)
My condolences to you. I hadn't seen his final reply before; it is so full of fail I cannot begin to express it in words.

[identity profile] 2009-08-05 07:52 pm (UTC)(link)
It strikes me as self serving to define all people's actions at all times as self serving and therefore able to be dismissed as merely self serving. A fantastic circular argument! Cool! Plus sadly revealing.

[identity profile] 2009-08-05 08:09 pm (UTC)(link)
Wow. You know that thing about "when you're in a hole, stop digging"? It's as if he is not just digging, but breaking out the power-drills and getting up on his bulldozer, shouting "Lookit me, I'm DIGGING!", as he continues his merry way into the CENTRE OF THE EARTH. *headdesk*.

I actually feel the need to go and look up what he has written, just so I know exactly who to avoid in future.

THANK you for that image!

[identity profile] 2009-08-06 02:50 am (UTC)(link)
I am munching popcorn and waiting for him to break into the lost world and be eaten by dinosaurs! YAY dinosaurs!

Preferably female ones.

[identity profile] 2009-08-05 08:11 pm (UTC)(link)
Listen, Rose, cut the kid some slack. I used to sound exactly the same way when I was fourteen and someone contradicted me on the internet. Give him a few years to grow up. I'm sure given time he'll stop being such an astoundingly self-righteous prick and and-

Hm? What's that you say?

Oh. Oh dear.
ailbhe: (Default)

[personal profile] ailbhe 2009-08-05 08:14 pm (UTC)(link)
See now, he *was* rude. I can tell the difference!

I'm sorry it worked out that way. But unsurprised.

[identity profile] 2009-08-05 08:15 pm (UTC)(link)
I feel like I need a "dissent is patriotic" icon. Only for "the field," whatever that means.

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[identity profile] 2009-08-05 08:31 pm (UTC)(link)


I had NO idea he was a complete fucking idiot.


Very disappointing.

Kudos to you for trying, at least.

[identity profile] 2009-08-05 09:04 pm (UTC)(link)

I've had his Steampunk Trilogy on my shelf for a long time, and now I don't think I'll be reading it. I'm sure he'd construe that as an unfair, "your camp" repugnant fit of boycotting and slander, but it's more just that now I won't be able to look at the cover without remembering the bad taste this conversation put in my mouth.

[identity profile] 2009-08-05 09:10 pm (UTC)(link)
At least *you're* nice, not like those other nasty people who disagree with him.

[identity profile] 2009-08-05 09:25 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, dear. I am so sorry.

[identity profile] 2009-08-05 09:27 pm (UTC)(link)
Well, at least he wrote to you--he didn't write to me, after I contacted him.

Now I'll actually read this, and I'm sure I'll have other things to say.

[identity profile] 2009-08-05 09:53 pm (UTC)(link)
Here from a link on a friends' page, but wanting to say before even reading the post that I have friended you on the basis of your tags (i mean, wow, awesome, look at those tags, and so beautifully organized), and your great profile page, and even the title of this post!

*wishes to fangirl you in a totally non-stalkerish way, truly*

**goes to read post**

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